Help, smoking from the muffler on my 98 450ES - Page 3 - Honda Foreman Forums : Rubicon, Rincon, Rancher and Recon Forum
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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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Got it torn down today and here are a few pics to show the condition. Not very pretty especially the valves. One thing I found out the piston in there is 1 mm oversized which is what my extra one is. So it won't do me any good if I need a bore...
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1998 Honda Foreman 450ES`
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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bcsman View Post
Got it torn down today and here are a few pics to show the condition. Not very pretty especially the valves. One thing I found out the piston in there is 1 mm oversized which is what my extra one is. So it won't do me any good if I need a bore...
Looks to me like the crank has been hot from the bluing.

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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 07:49 PM
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Can you post pics of the cylinder walls and the side of the piston?


That's a fair amount of carbon in pic #1.



One thing you can do at home.... Carefully remove the top ring from the piston, keeping the top of the ring oriented the way it has been running. Put the ring, top facing up, about 1/4" down into the cylinder. Using the piston to push the ring down can help make sure it's square in the bore. Now using a feeler gauge, measure the gap between the ends of the ring.


If the top ring breaks, try the second one. You have to work the rings off in a spiral, unless you happen to have a ring spreader.



The oil rings are the bottom rings on the piston. How do they look? If you push the oil rings inward on the piston, how much do they stick out on the opposite side?
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Looks to me like the crank has been hot from the bluing.
Yea noticed that also, not sure why as it hasn't run low on oil since I have had it.....

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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Moccasin Ranger View Post
Can you post pics of the cylinder walls and the side of the piston?


That's a fair amount of carbon in pic #1.



One thing you can do at home.... Carefully remove the top ring from the piston, keeping the top of the ring oriented the way it has been running. Put the ring, top facing up, about 1/4" down into the cylinder. Using the piston to push the ring down can help make sure it's square in the bore. Now using a feeler gauge, measure the gap between the ends of the ring.


If the top ring breaks, try the second one. You have to work the rings off in a spiral, unless you happen to have a ring spreader.



The oil rings are the bottom rings on the piston. How do they look? If you push the oil rings inward on the piston, how much do they stick out on the opposite side?
I will give it a try tomorrow with results...

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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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Didn't get the valves out yet but took a few pics you requested. The cylinder pic kinda sucks but tried to get the best light. The pic of the rings show with having them pushed flush on one side how far they stick out.
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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 08:52 PM
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Seems like quite a bit of scuff on the piston, all over the sides, above and below the rings. Not sure how much is just dirt and smudges.



Oil rings don't seem right to me, like maybe they're for a standard bore? Or they're oversize, for a 350cc? At best, they don't appear able to have much pressure against the cylinder wall. In the first pic, the bottom oil ring is on top of the spacer, but it has been disassembled and handled, they don't normally slip out of place like that though. The spacer should cover the ends of the rings and help hold them in place on the ring lands.



I wonder if the top rings are installed upside down. Rings normally have marks that get installed facing up, then the marks also tell which ring goes where. Or maybe the bore job wasn't done right?



Hard to judge the pic of the cylinder. I would get it measured and see what's up. it does have some scoring, and marks that look like it may have sat a long time ... Unless that's just the bottom of the stroke, but I don't think so.


Small chance that it could be honed and a new set of rings installed, but it needs measured with an inside micrometer..



The rings and ring lands do appear carbon-free, so they most likely weren't stuck, but the oil rings just don't look right.


Did the shop remove the head when they lapped the valves? The gaskets should still look new.
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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Moccasin Ranger View Post
Seems like quite a bit of scuff on the piston, all over the sides, above and below the rings. Not sure how much is just dirt and smudges.



Oil rings don't seem right to me, like maybe they're for a standard bore? Or they're oversize, for a 350cc? At best, they don't appear able to have much pressure against the cylinder wall. In the first pic, the bottom oil ring is on top of the spacer, but it has been disassembled and handled, they don't normally slip out of place like that though. The spacer should cover the ends of the rings and help hold them in place on the ring lands.

I will also take a closer look at the outside of the piston and inside the cylinder. Honestly looking at the pics are not like looking at it in front of you. I have tried to do the best but will look for evidence of scuffing by wiping clean as it has oil streaks and dirt from being handled since removing....

I wonder if the top rings are installed upside down. Rings normally have marks that get installed facing up, then the marks also tell which ring goes where. Or maybe the bore job wasn't done right?



Hard to judge the pic of the cylinder. I would get it measured and see what's up. it does have some scoring, and marks that look like it may have sat a long time ... Unless that's just the bottom of the stroke, but I don't think so.


Small chance that it could be honed and a new set of rings installed, but it needs measured with an inside micrometer..



The rings and ring lands do appear carbon-free, so they most likely weren't stuck, but the oil rings just don't look right.


Did the shop remove the head when they lapped the valves? The gaskets should still look new.
Lots of info from you. Yes they did remove the head and gaskets do look new. I will take a look at the new piston I have to compare the rings. I'm thinking as a kit the rings came from Wiseco installed and should be correct. Went out and did a quick comparison of the two pistons rings. On the installed one the 2 top rings extend about the same with the bottom one less. On the new one the 3 rings are staggered, the top extend most, second less and bottom one less.

1998 Honda Foreman 450ES`

Last edited by bcsman; 06-10-2019 at 09:52 PM. Reason: add
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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 09:52 PM
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I've never received a new piston with the rings already installed, but I suppose that could be something new. ???


How do the new bottom rings compare to the ones you just took out?


Definitely something off somewhere. The piston still looks fairly new, but it has all that scuff, it's smoking, and the oil rings appear too small to do much.
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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Just went outside to compare the old and new pistons. I cleaned up the old one and there are vertical marks on it but surface. I scraped my fingernail across them and couldn't feel any scuffs. So then took a look at the new one and it has similar marks. AFAIK, it is new as it is clean. I need to look at the cylinder closer tomorrow to see what it looks like. If sand or something was in there should also be vertical scuffing? Will have my auto mechanic friend look at the piston and cylinder to see what he says. Maybe post a side by side pic of both pistons for comparison..

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Last edited by bcsman; 06-10-2019 at 10:43 PM. Reason: add
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